Space Ninja V2 #353
Space Ninja V2 #353
Conversation
might change some stuff, won't PR just yet
github-actions
bot
added
Design
added progressive cloaking removed the "can no longer emag lathes/printers" nerf because they couldn't in the first place fixed spelling and capitalizations
rewrote objectives
cleared up some additions, added the pda and increased reflect chance when wielding
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I want to repeat this as a comment because I dont know if it is visible as a pending review, but on the mention of all ninjas being humans: I dont really see the point in making all of these species who are interesting in their own way and then not using them for antags, an entire class of role in which their unique attributes can shine. It also sounds kind of arbitrary to justify the decision by saying the outfit looks better, or to claim that the faction just prefers humans. Like, im not entirely against any instance of themed faction, but like, Im not sure why they just would prefer humans here. |
For me I feel like it'd just make a whole lot more sense from an IC standpoint if the Spider Clan had rooted from hyper tech-maniacal humans, as in a lot of fantasy settings they are portrayed as the most "massive" and "prevalent" species due to their often early technological advancements, and the Spider Clan is what happens when instead of wanting to diversify into the cosmos the humans develop too much for their own good, and eventually turn into something cult-like (in this case, the worshipped idol is technology), it's also that much more unique, having a species-locked faction I mean, similarly to how in SS13 lore S.E.L.F. is mainly constitued of IPCs Edit: to add onto this, Spider Clan's agents being standardized into bio-engineered humans also emphasizes the ninja's abilities and mechanics greatly, as humans by themselves are incredibly bland, there's no longer a "I'm used to this species" scenario (which I've personally come to develop as a player, I have a bad habit of constructing "safe" strategies around the usage of my species, instead of sometimes branching out with whatever tools I have at my disposal) |
I disagree with both points. I don't think it's a good excuse to disallow characters of other species strictly in terms of established IC lore, which isn't even present on upstream. Even if we accepted this, it makes more sense from an IC standpoint to accept other species strictly due to their benefits than average humans. Disregard this, I think that people want to be at least partially recognizable. All ninjas who just... look the same but behave differently is not fun, some people play their antag ghost roles under a certain gimmick established by them. For the second point, I don't think this alone is enough to justify only accepting humans. I don't think players build their game plan around their species and get distracted by their species abilities. People are attracted to the ninjas abilities a thousand times more than they are attracted to two extra pocket slots or tail dragging. There's no need to force someone to play human in order to encourage the player to use their ninja abilities. |
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Personally, I don't care either way if the role gets restricted to humans only or not, but I do have one issue regarding the ninja when it comes to the character you play, I have seen multiple times where the ninja played their character, but instead of being Nanotrasen aligned, they're Spider Clan, which makes sense, but it opens up a very confusing scenario, granted rare, where someone who died IC, in round, manages to get the role, and now... they're playing as their character, who died, as a ninja. Now, this wouldn't be much of an issue, if it wasn't for the ghost role rules specifically stating that "You are absolutely not allowed to remember, say, the name, appearance, etc. of your previous character. Which is an issue, because, in every way but name (Probably not DNA or Prints), you ARE the previous character if you died on that shift. Related to that, it also means that players who you have a lot of interaction with in rounds would recognize you from your details, like your hair, the color or design of your tail, or maybe the color and design of your wings. Which, again, wouldn't be much of an issue, but this indirectly encourages people to regard you as that very same character, which in turn, makes it harder to disconnect the ninja from 'The guy I see on station every other shift' So from my point of view, one of two things need to happen.
While yes, this isn't entirely related to the debate, I figured I would bring this up regardless, since it might change a bit about the situation. (I made an issue about this since this doc reminded me of it space-wizards/space-station-14#33713) |
I don't think behaving differently whilst looking similarly to be an issue, as the crew shouldn't be having thoughts like "oh! I recognize that character! It's (player)" to begin with, as a ninja you are to assume a (imho) completely separate persona to that of your usual characters, as it's a massively antagonistic opt-in ghost role, nuclear operatives (not loneops) are exempt from this, even though they are massively antagonistic whilst using the player's characters, as contrary to ninjas they're rolled for roundstart, hence there not being any IC conflicts with them regarding lookalikes (eg. with ninja: them looking eerily similar to the cargo technician that just cryo'd). This is also an issue with loneops.
I might have used an example too subjective and based on personal experience, for that I apologize for my lack of clarity. However I think implementing a moderately sudden shift to how a humanoid role plays out (kinda similar to how borgs play so differently to normal crew because of their boons and restrictions, even though in practice they mostly just do what the crew usually does) to be incredibly fun, and I don't want being able to "pick" your character to have any conflicts with this, as, going back to my first point, I want ninjas to assume a completely separate persona to that of the player's usual characters. if my view of this isn't clear enough yet please do comment since wrapping my head around a matter this subjective is a toughie, lol. |
I... actually really like this way of addressing the issue! (regarding proposal 1.) But wouldn't that imply that there should be a shortened species selection to randomly pick from? (since a diona ninja kills off half of the things that makes it good) |
| - Hacking the criminal records computer is now one of the many miscellaneous actions the Space Ninja can do in order to frustrate the crew - The error announcement will now only be sent by the criminal records computer on the Security channel, opposed to the previous station-wide Central Command Announcement. | ||
| - The crew monitoring server is now prone to being hacked by the Space Ninja, doing so will disable everyone's sensors until deconstructed and reconstructed. | ||
| - The station records computer is now prone to being hacked by the Space Ninja, doing so will delete a small % of random personnel from it accompanied by a station-wide announcement. | ||
| - The camera router is now prone to being hacked by the Space Ninja, doing so will kill a large % of its connected cameras and render them useless. |
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I'd like the server to become unrepairable, and require an engineer or so to do maintenance on the camera router. It can be something where there isn't no true physical destruction, it's just disrupted and required repair.
This would make countering the AI extremely viable and the ninja could plan ahead: "I'll break into telecoms and short out the cameras to security, so I can get a high-cap without being spotted"
To reduce metagaming ("ninja on station, my cameras in sec aren't working!!") we could have this same effect trigger for a random telecoms server during a solar flare. It would expose players to the situation more often and make it less unique to the ninja. EMPs should also disrupt cameras, and if they hit servers, it should disrupt them and cut cams too. I believe there's an issue on the repo right now that asks the question "should cameras have to be routed through a router" which I really like, both for regular gameplay, and for this idea.
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I'd like the server to become unrepairable, and require an engineer or so to do maintenance on the camera router. It can be something where there isn't no true physical destruction, it's just disrupted and required repair.
Maybe, just maybe, what if instead of the router itself being affected only the cameras require repairing? It'd probably require for a certain % of them to suddenly get their wires cut, though. I just can't really see any way of the engineers having a way to repair routers without it just being a "use in-case of ninja" thing.
This would make countering the AI extremely viable and the ninja could plan ahead: "I'll break into telecoms and short out the cameras to security, so I can get a high-cap without being spotted"
To reduce metagaming ("ninja on station, my cameras in sec aren't working!!") we could have this same effect trigger for a random telecoms server during a solar flare. It would expose players to the situation more often and make it less unique to the ninja. EMPs should also disrupt cameras, and if they hit servers, it should disrupt them and cut cams too. I believe there's an issue on the repo right now that asks the question "should cameras have to be routed through a router" which I really like, both for regular gameplay, and for this idea.
agreed! it'd also enrich engineering gameplay which they severely need, also, if possible, could you link said question so I can take a look at the discussions that take place?
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Maybe, just maybe, what if instead of the router itself being affected only the cameras require repairing? It'd probably require for a certain % of them to suddenly get their wires cut, though.
Having wires on cameras get cut would be annoying:
- If they were cut, someone would have to uncut literally all of them.
- It makes no sense for the wires to be suddenly cut.
- There is not very obvious communication to the player that a camera is malfunctioning.
- To solve this, a camera that is broken could become a fried camera, and it could be easily repaired by using 1 LV cable.
And, to be honest, I like the central outage idea more for the ninja. BUT I wouldn't mind having fried cameras for tiers of camera damage, which is another problem that has been discussed before.
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agreed! it'd also enrich engineering gameplay which they severely need, also, if possible, could you link said question so I can take a look at the discussions that take place?
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cameras dont even need to be set up for AI to see through them, let alone need a working router
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cameras dont even need to be set up for AI to see through them, let alone need a working router
yeah that's pretty weird, though Isn't this mostly due to AI atm being extremely barebones? Plus, this is also troublesome for people like the Warden, who are also constantly checking cameras.
Basically Space Ninja remastered, a lot of its existing content remains unchanged, this is more of an array of new additions and/or changes that are generally agreed by the community to make for a more enticing (And unique) Space Ninja, includes:
Why
Well, for starters, engaging ghost roles are currently missing in the quantity department, and so it's my plan to improve the ones we already have and love.
Space Ninjas at the moment also have some outright broken abilities, as well as extremely linear gameplay due to lacking what they should be best at: Stealthing, which is what this document also addresses.