The Revolutionaries Rework #309
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| #### Tier 2: | ||
| Tier 2 items should allow the revolution to blossom; these should have conditional usecases, meaning a headrev selects the one that is most suitable for how the revolution has developed. | ||
| - Marximov: A Revolutionary-aligned AI lawboard. Must still be installed in the AI law upload. |
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Does this rely on borgs automatically getting the AI laws in the future, or are borgs supposed to be unconvertible for revs? Even converted scientists can't really do anything to them without an emag afaik.
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It's up in the air for how Malfunctioning AI might work in the future; as far as I know borg laws will eventually copy AI law. It just seems fun to have a way to subvert the AI.
| Deconversion puts you fully on the crew side. This does fully include the ability to sell out your fellow Revolutionaries by remembering their names. Headrevs therefore have a choice to act more stealthily disguise themselves and blend in with the Revolution, or assign another Revolutionary (possibly their first convert) to act as the revolution's leader to throw off potential deconvert sell-outs. | ||
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| Methods of deconversion include: | ||
| - Harm baton, heals **10** CHP per hit |
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I feel like this makes a crew lose before the round ever reaches the open confrontation, arresting a single antag in a couple minutes is considered pretty fast normally, but would be deadly here. Might be fine with some number wrangling, but wanted to give an alternative:
I love the idea to nudge sec to be violent about this, possibly lethal after a certain point, but some nonviolent ways should be available to the rest of the crew. Perhaps being around the captain humanizes him so he passively heals CHP. Or alcohol/space drugs makes people content so it greatly increases the healing rate. The random pizza event deals global CHP damage, but actually eating it heals a ton. Stuff like this would actively push revs to be increasingly more public to counteract these effects. It could also make paranoid heads do the things corpo managers do to keep morale up, which could be pretty funny.
I agree that deconversion should not happen on accident and it makes these tricky, but they could work similarly to how poison works in a lot of games. Simply can't go over 0, and/or the effect scales in a way that can't deconvert, but the heal amount is greater the further away from 0 the person is.
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I wanted to make deconversion/healing methods to have interplay with the Revolutionaries somewhat; you shouldn't be encouraged to start slamming alcohol the moment you suspect Revs.
Instead I made crew have a passive heal. It's low but not insignificant, and taking LHP damage disables it for a moment. That way you don't need to go out of your way to do something "metagamey" to heal damage and you can't really pre-emptively prepare for it. Once Revs are confirmed it breeds some great paranoia too.
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this is a really good idea and it seems real fun. Here are the things I like and that I don't. Like:
Dislike (mostly if not entirely to do with the DDD, which is a good idea in itself, just the items are weird)
An idea I had: There should be some sort of interaction with the news management console. Maybe amp up the communications console effect on there? Would probably only apply if the crewmember reads the article. Please take this all with a grain of salt, as, after all, these are just the musings of a player. I just wanted to add my thoughts on such a good rework proposal. This also completely remakes the conversion format for the game mode, which is truly... Revolutionary. TL;DR, maybe analyze the DDD items more, mindshields being breakable is good, radio codewords needs a bit of looking at |
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wow holy shit this sounds 200% better who would have thought that making murderbone a bad idea would solve revs |
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*except centcomm interns |
thistbh HoS would never support a revolution |
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there are some very good concepts here |
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I like how not only did you stop the issues with the gamemode but actively turn some negatives such as metagaming pr lack of RP into positives by mechanically forcing people to socialise or do social deduction |
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Yes. Ten thousand times yes. This is amazing. Very very well done. |
I did this, though I still call it Loyalty Health Points for the acronym LHP. Calling it just Loyalty works now though, and it sounds better (plus makes the Convertable state sound more distinct). |
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A potential idea I have is the implementation of propaganda videotapes which can be used on TV's to provide a area deconversion/conversion effect similar to posters but more powerful also a idea for a T3 Dead Drop Items, IFF integrated surplus rifle and IFF rifle ammo schematic, essentially a special gun and ammo type which doesn't hit revolutionaries instead passing over them to hit other targets, individually the guns are kind of pathetic (low fire rate and damage) but in a group they can make for a good final push for the revolution without the normal risk of friendly fire you would get from just ordering guns from cargo |
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This seems incredible. Literally the perfect gamemode imo. There appears to be several strategies for victory on both sides which is awesome! Man, I really hope someone codes this. The gameplay sounds so much deeper than most of the gamemodes we have rn. |
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Small additional idea: If a Revolutionary kills themselves with damage (explosion, self-immolation), it could also perhaps deal LHP damage? I love the theming of this rework, and martyring oneself is another very "revolutionary" concept, I think. |
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What if at tier 3 you could buy mosin and ammo blueprint? That's very commy. Maybe also some kind of revolution music you can play to increase loyalty damage and decrease loyalty overall |
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this is a bit of a personal thing, but i dont like that Revs seem to be going for an explicitly communist theme here. revolutions can be motivated by a number of factors, and it should be up to the players how they want to RP the flavor of their rebellion. one of the most fun times ive ever had as a headrev was being a chaplain that played it like a cult taking over the station by indoctrinating people. |
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It would be interesting if sec/command killing a crew member also did damage to loyalty. It would mean that even if the game mode wasn't revs 2.0, but you instead became an initial rev via midround conversion, you would benefit from shitsec gunning down a protest earlier in the round. |
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What is preventing this from being approved and merged? I'd like to start implementing this game mode but am hesitant due to this still being unmerged. |
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A suggestion for that very last line :
The trigger for this should be tied to converted Command members. Converted Command should also deal more Loyalty damage through the use of codewords than the common crew, maybe with a reduce malus when using radio/announcements. |
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I have updated the document with some small but impactful changes based on feedback:
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I must say I think there can be more to bring LHP. |
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I'll probably sound quite harsh in some of these comments but it's mostly just trying to attack the idea so it can be defended and built out on. I do think the only major worries I'd have would be:
- Making the mode too codeword heavy. I think you've got some pillars here - causing chaos and violence to weaken the crew's loyalty, spreading verbal propaganda, and spreading visual propaganda. Those I think are three pillars, going for any one of the three alone as the "main" way to convert people IMO would be problematic.
- The escape shuttle gameplay needs revising away from. It's a dead end; you want to encourage a war on the station, not a dull round ending with a shuttlebombing for HRs to greentext on.
- Lack of consideration of how the different departments interact with the mode. You need to at least be able to describe "why this mode is fun" for the departments, what each department can bring to the game mode, etc.
- Lack of consideration about the admin aspect of the mode and how to get rid of the admin metashielding rules.
| Revolutionaries are a team conversion antag: a small number of players begin as antagonists, but are able to convert crew to antags, with the antag faction's strength largely being dependent on the number of conversion. As a conversion antag, a round with Revolutionaries should attempt to follow the stages below. | ||
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| - Initial conversions | ||
| - This is the stage where the antag begin conversion crew - this should be done stealthily, and failing to do so may result in a swift win for crew. To their benefit the antag is given some kind of initial advantage, providing a quick power bump to get things going. |
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This is a constant problem with snowballing antags in general. The design of any Revs mode that involves snowballing is going to have to counterbalance a fluked round (i.e. "Revs are discovered immediately through misfortune") with potential for recovery.
The critical flaw of current Revs is the "discovery" mechanic. The only thing that prevents the HOS from creating a mindshield line in front of Sec every shift is admin rules; any Revs refactor must find a way of resolving this.
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You can either somehow counter discovery or change up the gamemode conditions when discovered too early
- Countering discovery is almost impossible due to metagaming and metaknowledge of rev mechanics
- Changing or shifting gamemode conditions might be possible, such as a chance for a regular rev to become headrev upon headrev death (100% with like 2 revs, 0% with like 15), or turning into some low-level insurgency (whatever that entails)
| - Resolution | ||
| - After the climax the round finishes up, resolving the round for remaining players. Usually this is the last few minutes before the evacuation shuttle arrives. |
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The sloppy wrap-up of Revs is also a big design challenge. Functionally Revs winning by head elimination means that there's only two outcomes to any Revs round that gets to the point of a major fight:
- TDM that ends with all heads dead
- TDM that ends with all revs dead
and then a wait for the shuttle, then everyone gets on the shuttle and goes back to Centcomm.
Any Revs refactor needs to make a satisfying end-of-round that isn't just TDM.
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It could be interesting if there was a sort of capture the flag aspect to the end of the round. The heads think they have weeded out most of the Revs so they go to the bridge and hit a facility secured button telling centcom that they think the station is secured. This starts a ten minute timer and during this time either command or Revs can capture key areas on the station via some means. At the end of the station secured timer the round ends and it's revealed who has control of the station.
There are some real kinks with this idea like what incentives heads to hit the button, where are the key points on the station that need securing, and what if all heads are killed before that point. This does have the upside of no shuttle and no need for TDM.
| ## New Revolutionaries, Basic layout | ||
| <sup>Any values given here are suggestions and are especially marked by being **bolded**. Any such value should be adjusted based on playtesting.</sup> | ||
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| The Revolutionary antag begins either as a 2-4 roundstart antag roll for the Revolutionary gamemode, or a single crewmember secretly becomes a Revolutionary antag during another gamemode midround. |
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The question here is what roundstart means; we delay Tot selection for a few minutes. Should Revs be different?
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Either way goes to be honest. Unlike Thieves and current Revs, you are not given any roundstart equipment. That is the main reason those roles are provided roundstart.
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| Revolutionary antags that start out this way are considered Head Revolutionaries (HeadRevs). A Head Revolutionary has the duty to begin the conversion of other crew and have some extra tools at their disposal to strengthen the progression of the antag faction, but they are not strictly necessary for the revolution antags to succeed. The goal for Head Revolutionaries is to convert crew to grow the faction's strength, convert department Heads and survive until the evacuation shuttle without being deconverted. | ||
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| Head Revolutionaries share the same team and when they are given the role they obtain the names and jobs of the other Head Revolutionaries on the station. Revolutionaries can be identified by other revolutionaries via an icon next to their character, however Head Revs do not have a unique icon. |
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I'd keep Head Revs having a unique icon. HRs people who have specifically queued to be HRs and having them flagged to other Revs means Revs know who the leaders are.
Also I don't want to change my lobby art :godo:
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I think is fine under two conditions:
- Only HRs can see blue R icon on themselves and other HRs
- Broken mindshields make blue R visible to everyone, including non-revs
This will let HRs disguise themselves when converting people and mitigate getting ratted out
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I am not opposed to making the R blue for headrevs to see each other, as headrevs get each others' names roundstart.
With how the conversion mechanics have been changed and the core problem of "one Cargo Tech gets deconverted, rats out all the revolutionary leaders" is something I want to avoid.
Head Revs have ways to reveal themselves to their revolutionaries anyhow, by either just saying it or bringing out the DDD. This puts the choice into their hands.
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| Head Revolutionaries share the same team and when they are given the role they obtain the names and jobs of the other Head Revolutionaries on the station. Revolutionaries can be identified by other revolutionaries via an icon next to their character, however Head Revs do not have a unique icon. | ||
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| For crew, the goal is to deconvert revolutionary converts, protect Heads from being converted, and ensure Head Revs are discovered and/or do not make it onto the evacuation shuttle. |
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You need to decide if HRs are or are not special; if they are, they need to be flagged to their own side. There's also the Q about "don't make it onto evac". The point of the revolution is to take over the station by overthrowing the heads, the Revs shouldn't ever want to evac.
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the Revs shouldn't ever want to evac.
I feel this line comes from the poor framing of current Revs that they are supposed to "take over the station, period". If we take that to its full extent, it means you have a round where a major antag won and now... You just sit around? Unlike Traitors, which are destructive by nature, there is nothing much intrinsic to Revs (old or new) that encourages making the environment uninhabitable for Evac.
Making Revs have a win condition revolving Evac means you break the stalemate-ness, too. Command hiding in space? Who cares, just evac and let them rot in space while you party with a major/minor.
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| Authoritarian regimes killing of protesting civilians causing further unrest, or freedom fighters getting a shock when they first murder someone, are concepts that are closely tied to a revolution. They are also ideas that would be suitable mechanically to combat murder sprees from either side during a Revolution round. The following section is only relevant for crew and Revs; non-crew characters (pets, mobs) and other antags (traitors, Nukies) do not interact with the following mechanic. | ||
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| If a Revolutionary *or crewmember* dies by the hand of another crewmember (being dealt the damage that put them in a critical state), they will deal **15** non-split LHP in a **8** tile line-of-sight radius around their body. While remaining dead they will also provide a passive **-0.1** LHP / second in a **4** tile line-of-sight radius. This works in the same way but in reverse if a Revolutionary performs the kill, healing LHP upon death when killed by a Revolutionary/Crewmember. The initial burst also has a **120** second cooldown, to avoid repeatedly reviving and killing the same person twice to trigger the effect. This means both sides are discouraged from indiscriminately killing, favoring limited killing and kidnapping. |
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This is sort of a complex idea so I'll try and make sure I have it straight: crewmembers take LHP when they see shocking things happen, but Revs will gain LHP when this happens. This can cause flips, and if it's Revs->Crew then it's a 1s stun?
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Kill the other side: bad for your LHP, good for the other side's LHP
Kill your own side: bad for your LHP, good for the other side's LHP
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| There is an interesting dichotomy that can form here where Revolutionaries have an easier time to "heal" revolutionary fervor by dealing LHP damage to each other via chanting codewords. On the other hand, Security has more access to stun weaponry and as such have an easier time subduing Revolutionary groups non-lethally. | ||
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| ### Mindshields |
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This design means you can create antag Sec and Head roles (other than the Captain), a known hard design to get right in SS13/14.
A HR that can capture a HOS or Warden for a few minutes and convert them is going to power spike massively - that answers "why bother converting", I suppose - but in general Rev heads/secoffs feels like a problem.
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With the de-emphasis on killing, a rev SecOff is gonna be very useful but not as impactful as they would be in current revs. Being able to smuggle out stuns and stuff is great, of course, but that should be a worthy reward for converting a protected and armed crewmember.
| - A newly injected mindshield always has full LHP, regardless of Revolutionary status. | ||
| - Mindshields can be removed, much like any other implant. The exceptions for this is the Captain and ERT/CentComm, who have unremovable mindshields (however due to being unconvertable, this is mostly just flavor). | ||
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| New mindshields are able to be purchased from Cargo at a reasonable price. One possible suggestion would be 4 implanters for $8000. |
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I think giving perfect mindshielding to the Captain, HOS, Warden, Dets, Secoffs and Cadets and then just not mindshielding the other heads (or giving them these weaker ones) makes more sense to avoid shithousery. Arguably HOP too given how powerful AA is.
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Overall I'm really not a fan of keeping mindshields around at all anyway. It's an unsatisfying and slow mechanic and still requires "rev discovery" admin metashield rules that the admins hate enforcing. Mindshielding as an implant is just kinda bad design.
Feels more like something that could be done via surgery tho.
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I disagree with this paragraph. Yes; Sec still benefit from mindshielding crew, but it is no longer a binary guarantee. Additionally, a Rev could easily get a mindshield themselves and become a trusted ally, or the revs successfully convett someone with a shield - which would also be why Sec would no longer be able to rely on the hud icon exclusively.
| - Posters can be taken down, and if recycled gives back some cloth. | ||
| - Destroying a poster that is rolled up on a wall heals **5** LHP if it's a Revolutionary poster, or deals **10** LHP if it's a Loyal poster. | ||
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| ### Dead Drop Duffelbag / The Revolutionaries Uplink |
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Skimming over this section but there's some great ideas in here. Especially love the megaphone.
| - Headband is a headwear item that can be created by using a sharp object on a bandana. (Crafting method may be changed if dyeing clothes is implemented). | ||
| - This is a fashion accessory accessible to all crew, however when worn by a Revolutionary their codewords deal 1.5x more LHP damage. | ||
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| **Revolutionary posters** |
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I'm biased as this mirrors my proposal. Think codewords and propaganda would make an equal pair of ways to wage LHP war so I'd bump this up in terms of importance.
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DDD is a fun and interesting way of doing antag items Overall i really like the direction this is setting the revolutionaries gamemode as it gets it away from full murderbone revbay town and into more RP based and interesting fun town. Great concepts over all i love a lot of the items especially the megaphone, Headset override, Revolutionary stamp and the Mindswap. Good work i think this should be merged. |
The one rework to rule them all.
Revolutionaries as a gamemode is currently fairly derided as a gamemode that relies too much on murderboning and being too "metagamey" to counterplay. This design document aims to remake the Revolutionary antag into one that escalates appropriately in presence throughout the round, has clear end conditions and doesn't encourage round removal.
Enjoy!
I want to highlight the previously submitted Revolutionaries reworks #251 and #146, as some concepts from those documents have made it into this proposal where appropriate.