Remove Revolutionaries Pending Redesign #33563
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S: Untriaged
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Issue 1 is never going to be resolved. People always will want the best players on their team and when cults will eventually be added, it's going to be something that will also be a constant in those modes too. Issue 2 is a nonissue. Issue 3 is somewhat intended. Space Station is built on paranoia and mistrust. Administrative issue aside, if the mode is doing that then it's doing its job well. Flash being metagameable is also by design. Especially on non-rev rounds if a traitor tries to stew up some trouble and make sec believe Revs exist. |
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inducing paranoia yes, not causing a god damn blood bath caused by BOTH SIDE ON CIVILIANS
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keep in mind that this antagonist was ported here without design doc, without following antagonist integration other must follow here(Design document, votes and all) |
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Already done. |
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Linking the last discussion in an identical PR #32211 |
i believe you should recontextualize this PR, as a good chunk of the moderation left and administration tools are known to be useless regarding their own purpose |
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Lets give it up for Rev removal PR number 4(?) now. Seriously though, nothing player or admin tooling-wise has changed since the last time this exact PR was denied, why does it keep being attempted? |
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Stop trying to remove it and just fix it, there is already a blueprint to follow. The gamemode was ported incomplete and it would be a lot better if it was more faithful to the original |
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Last PR wasn't denied, but it was closed by the creator of the PR. |
the gamemode was voted incomplete in the game(without any regard for the standard operation things must be go through to be implemented i should add). |
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No comment on this PR but I think some of the various proposals for revs should be approved but on a temporary basis for testing only! I think if we could see some of the designs in game that would be very helpful |
beck-thompson
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P3: Standard
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Can we not remove content from the game and instead just rework them? |
if you read the changes you would note that nothing is removed code wise, allowing requested modification to be made and tested on the backend. keep in mind that revolutionaries was added without following additional major content protocols, this game mode and antagonist shouldn't even BE to begin with on wizden |
To be fair, with that argument we would have to remove a lot of major content that was added before the design doc requirement was made. The station AI has no document yet for example. The vox doc was not merged yet either. We need to fix that of course and write some documents for existing features. |
FWIW, every other antag in the game except for thieves do not have publicly accessible design documents at the moment. Using this logic we would need to remove nearly every gamemode, including revs. Syndicates, Nukies, Zombies, all of them. |
what about the "job content takes development priority above all else"? forgot that too i suppose. a little roadmap wouldn't hurt and work very well, just take a look at RMC. |
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despite my hatred for the mode itself, I think its far more progressive and better for the game overall if we keep it until a doc or atleast some reasonable steps have been taken to put the process of reworking the mode have been made |
wrong pr? #32586 (comment) |
yep... wrong pr |
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even though the gamemode is an absolute mess, i dont feel like we have enough gamemodes/antags to have the luxury of just removing one of them u.u (also like ive seen people hate every gamemode from zombs, revs, nukies, weird meteor thingi, survival to traitors, none of them are perfect either) |
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As a player, revolutionaries is the only gamemode I truly hate, because it always devolves into an NRP deathmatch where both sides guns the other down. It's one of the most easily metagamable game modes we have because someone flashing someone else means one thing, and very rarely means anything else, and the metashield is very unclear on how protected everything is. I've heard many similar complaints from other players. Even with how rare the game mode is, players despise it happening. Some players even choose to cryo or suicide the moment they get flashed, meaning the head rev just wasted a flash converting a player that they cannot force to play an antag they didn't sign up for. My personal opinion is that it would be for the best if this game mode was disabled until reworked or replaced. |
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to add something actually productive to the discussion: i believe that revolutionaries as a gamemode should have been disabled long ago, and should only be brought back when someone implements space-wizards/docs#309. |
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This has been see-sawed backward and forward repeatedly and I made a concerted effort to define a Revs 2.0 implementation early this year. There is both stuff that can be done to make the current implementation better and stuff that can be done to totally rework the game mode. But the reason it's been switched on several times is that, whilst the mode sucks, it does not suck so bad it literally should never be played. Revs should be disabled the exact moment a 2.0 doc exists and is accepted, and I'd personally be happy to work either on refining Revs 2.0 (i.e. my system involving mind controlling the crew and fighting for control of the bridge) or another Revs mode. |
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Right now the prominent issue with revs is admin overhead; the single biggest factor in why revs work well at all in SS13 is due to how liberal most servers are with handing out rev bans for players who behave out of line. Revs currently require constant admin oversight due to a wide variety of factors, with the most prominent being converted revs choosing to singuloose, plasmaflood, grief, or otherwise throw the round in protest of being forced to be a rev. The admin team is not currently in a state where that overhead can be reasonably outweighed by player enjoyment. It's unreasonable to expect a stressed and undernumbered team to monitor a gamemode that's currently designed in a way that necessitates admin supervision throughout the whole round. |
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t this apply to nearly every gamemode? Admin oversight is constantly required for syndicates - there are constant singulooses, plasma floods, mass indiscriminate round removal, and other excessive actions that need constant admin intervention to prevent or mitigate. Especially with rule 2.9 being as strict as it is. For zombies, you have zeds mass spacing the station and destroying equipment instead of attacking players, players instantly suiciding the moment they become converted, and mass sabotage by IIs Nukies are the least egregious in this, but still need admin oversite to prevent the crew from hiding or deleting the nuke and stalling the round, or to punish captains who fly off into space with the nuke disk. |
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A non-perfect gamemode is better than no gamemode at all. |
a non-perfect gamemode is worse than wilfully ignore global job content. been two years and the only things that were added job wise was salvage expedition/shuttle, science progression changes, TEG and tesla.(still waiting on NewMed that is waiting on chemistry rework, atmos refactor, kitchen recipe refactor, botany refactor, xenobiology, genetics, mails, beekeeping) |
I’m not sure how removing revs is helping add job content To add something useful: You cannot force contributors to focus on specific issues or content. The majority of them will not be care to PR stuff they are not interested in. Even if you were to temporarily freeze antags until job content was added, that does not guarantee that anyone would actually work on that content. Look at the content freeze from ~May and how colossal of a failure that was for proof of this. Revs being in the game will not take away resources from people who want to work on job content, and people who want to work on revs will never work on job content if they don’t want to. |
The contributor decided to allocate their time to add content that is absolutely not required at the moment, instead preferred wasting their time adding a gamemode that is a heavy workload on the admin front, at the time admin availability and coverage was already problematic but they still decided to push on this very bad idea. |
False, the maintainers are the ones voting if PRs make it or not, the different freezes they put in place add on what people can ultimately add at the current moment. the problems resides both on the contributors and maintainer front. |
No. You can prevent people from working on stuff, but you cannot force them to work on stuff you want them to. If someone wants to works on revs, but is told to work on job content instead, they just won’t do anything or go work on another fork. The entire reason the content freeze was not as successful as expected was learning this lesson. All non-bug fix PRs were closed, and most contributors chose to do nothing or go to another fork instead of working on bug fixes. |
same difference, if nothing get merged there will be a backlog of content waiting for the actual priority to get worked on, they will both stop working on non-priority content and start complaining, but the only person they should complain to is themselves because they can't follow a roadmap to get what they want faster. |
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The cycle continues I feel like most of the complaints about revs are salty headdrevs who get caught(me) and salty command members who get gibbed(also me). Can't we just do a thing like with cultists where at a certain amount of revs(if more revs than crew, crew can tell who is a rev) "they can no longer hide their true nature" type shiz? |
That ties into the whole “finishing the gamemode” deal. IIRC in some SS13 servers, on top of evac being unable to leave if headrevs are alive, once enough of the crew are revs the antagonists swap. The revs and anyone still unconverted become the true “crew” and all heads + sec become “antags” with the objective to escape from the station alive. |
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just remove revs from MRP so people stop complaining about it :godo: |
This doc requires some touch-ups and any work on it should be held until it is actually merged, but I welcome people to check it out and give their thoughts over there. |
I automatically like this as it salvages an idea I had for 2.0 which was the whole "war for the crew's psyche" aspect where the job of the revs is to convert people via... being revolutionaries :D I'd probably just re-litigate on the game mode win condition though (my idea was that the bridge had to be seized, rather than it being an evac-time thing) |
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Rev should never be removed, VIVE LA REVOLUTION !!! |
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merge the design doc for the revs rework and then someone make it plz |
I kinda like this, nanotrasen sends a message to command and sec "yo your crew has clearly rebelled, execute order 66, here is the nuke code, activate the self-destruct, leave no survivors, the evac shuttle will not arrive, glory to nanotrasen" Essentially they become a nerfed death squad, hell you could even force the station into Epsilon Alert Level |
Willing to try this considering we're still in a playtest and I'd rather not throw the baby out with bathwater (plus it's way easier to people to code this than a whole rework) On top of that, when they can't hide their true nature, I'd make rev leaders only have a red icon unless revealed by mindshield, turning blue when shielded (including if they get shielded when revs haven't hit critical mass) I'd also add maybe a few more mindshields roundstart, 4 isn't enough compared to potentially infinite flashes Revs probably should also lose memory of who flashed them as a rule |
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Here’s my opinion: Keep the gamemode, but implement an opt-in system Under Antags, add a new button that’s like “conversion antag opt in” which says you’re willing to play conversion antag. If say, 65% of the lobby has the opt-in enabled, revs can stay in the gamemode pool. If not, it doesn’t choose revs or other conversion antags. I personally really dislike conversion antags. I’m fine running from antags and doing my job to survive, but I really dislike being forced to become an antag whether I want to or not, because sometimes I’m just not in the mood to fight people and stuff but now I have to. Adding a system to see how many people actually want to do the gamemode should help counteract people with the same sentiment while still keeping it in the game for others who enjoy it to play. And yes, some people will still be unhappy when it happens, but significantly less |
this sounds like a good idea but i feel like the ratio needs to be like 70-75% |
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I agree with this PR in that Revs should be removed from the game mode pool and redesigned. The problem is, the redesign never actually happens, people complain there needs to be more game modes, and Revs just gets readded as is with the exact same TDM design issues as before. We don't need another "remove Revs pending redesign" PR. What we need is a "Revs redesign" PR. |
Which in general needs folks to step up and support Slam's design PR over on the docs repo. Revs should be removed after a Revs doc is merged, that design doc needs people with Space Station design experience to review it. If folks have Space Station design experience on 13 or 14 servers it'd be great for folks to look it over. |
slambamactionman's got a pretty sweet looking doc for a revs rework.. just needs to be reviewed and merged before development can start (further reading: any of the features that got closed because they didn't have a doc) |
On that we agree. The design doc in question, for anyone who wants to check it out or formally review it (wink wink nudge) : space-wizards/docs#309 |
You can start coding it before the doc gets accepted. Just don't be surprised if you're not able to get the PR through before the doc is. |
About the PR
Revolutionaries was always a problematic gamemode since it's initial implementation from the player side and on the administrative side of the game. As a result Revolutionaries become a mode full of ginormous grey administrative areas, and meta issues. This PR is going to remove Revolutionary from the secret pool and replace the gamemode with zombies in the interim. The mode will still be able to be run by an admin.
Why / Balance
Revolutionaries usually has 2 or 3 stages.
Sometimes, the round ends quickly, sometimes the Revolutionaries stall the shift for another hour (usually seen on late night, lower pop rev rounds) because a single member of command is hiding from the Revolutionaries looking to escape or survive. This usually requires admin intervention after ahelps.
Zombies doesn't have any of these problems. II are given a clock to attempt to damage the station and crew in a way to create more zombies. They by design are much harder to metagame since they are normal crew until the 30 minute timer expires, and don't have any metagameable items like the flash. II target robust players based on meta information in order to kill them first instead of picking the best player on the field. Zombies typically can't stall rounds by simply existing and hunting down a single survivor as the mode has built in safeguards to call evac once a large percentage of the crew is turned instead of only firing once the kill objective of the revs is 100% complete.
Many other servers have disabled or rejected Revolutionaries for the reasons outlined above, and I'm proposing it here (again).
Technical details
Moved the revolutionary percent into zombies 4% and kessler 1% because it's funny.
Requirements
Breaking changes
Nah.
Changelog
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