Arcyne Decoupling And Remaster #1156
Conversation
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hi, i don't really have any involvement in the server anymore so i don't care too much but a few people messaged me about this and the original purpose of the spellbook PR was specifically to give people a way to learn spells because there was none, so if you don't replace that mechanic you're just going to get people whining about a new option for that again also the other effects of the arcane skill are so minimal they're basically inconsequential. it's something like 5% of your arcane skill gets multiplied by the cooldown and removed from the cooldown, which generally equates to less than a full tick and therefore has no effect. same with the lowered stam cost from arcane. might want to buff those two options. |
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Does this retain the old bonuses to spell pts? Since you take a stat nuke for it. I also worry the overall reduction in spell pts is just going to make mages quite bad again, combined with recent lbolt nerfs and such. Honestly its such a playability boost tho its great |
They do, the boosts from being old apply. Its only a 2 point reduction overall, but tbh you'll probably have around the same if your rng sucks eggs. If they turn out underwhelming, then we just tick it up from here, easy balancing. |
5% is still compounding and a lot, 5% to 30% at cap. The spell points you would have gotten are just given base at a reduced rate for early aquiring, as stated in the pr. |
it's not. at max skill level you are getting 30% reduced cooldown, which given the average spell cooldown is 10 to 20 seconds is between 3 and 6 seconds. which is nothing. combined with the fact that the majority of people are not going to have max skill level, now you're looking at 2-3 seconds or less, not considering lower spell cooldowns on the more commonly used spells that are usually 4-5 seconds long, resulting in a cooldown reduction that is barely a single tick for max skill level and below a tick for lower skill level, resulting in no reduction of cooldown at all. keep in mind this is only because time is calculated in cycles, which generally uses numbers in the high 10s and 100s. fatigue is a far lower number and the difference basically never reaches a noticeable level. furthermore even if you do get more spell points at start instead of having to learn them, why...? if the point is to limit how hard people can grind, just instate not being able to go past journeyman instead of completely removing a mechanic without providing a suitable replacement for it. feature removal without replacement/addition is not a healthy position to have for a server's development, increasing numbers while reducing mechanics is not a solution to a problem. |
I appreciate your further involvement in this even after your departure from the server, so thank you for taking the time to give feedback. My intent is not to remove the feature, it is still very much within the game, it is to reduce its importance to these classes and push the first tenant of this server, roleplay first. What you find inconsiquential is a matter of opinion, and while I hold that in high regard, I disagree. I can tweak these numbers higher to give them more of an impact in the future, but the point is just to create a better experience for players outside of the spellbook mechanical tax. The spellbook spell point coupling creates a very difficult environment to balance, one that im sure the dev team has struggled with for a bit now, and with this we may have an easier time keeping it as part of the game without having to move class design around it. |
has it though? the only complaints have been from people that don't want to interact with the mechanic, any mechanic will have people that don't want to interact with it. If anything the complaint is that it takes too much time/effort to get spells, which was intentional. extra spell points aren't meant to be easy to accrue, and if anything this is just a shadow buff to spell related classes without adding any new mechanics. like i said ultimately i don't care but from a design standpoint removing mechanics and buffing numbers in the name of 'making balancing easier' when noone has even tried to change any of the balance aspects of the tomes sounds like an incredibly backwards stance to take, because i can guarantee you right now that no matter how much you change spell cooldown reduction noone will interact with that mechanic if it doesn't give spell points anymore |
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Heya, player who used to play court magician and was planning to return to it in a day here. I have to say I love the addition of a cap only the court magician can surpass and help surpass, it gives the role at least some importance when before it was basically just the biggest roundstart spellcaster about. I won't really comment on the balance of the cooldown reduction that the Arcane skill will now have, as I have not yet played with this system to compare it to others, but it does sound like a good way to balance things out. It should be something noticeable though, so people do bother to learn the skill. I've always felt like mage was meant to be both a support role and also a glass cannon sort of role. Magic should be scary and somewhat unbalanced, it should be dangerous and people who wield it should be either distrusted or respected. The trade-off to this is that mages are nerds, and even the most powerful lone mage can be mouth grabbed and destroyed by anyone remotely strong, which is why casters in armor have always been a balance breaking issue and something I personally disliked. Giving them only certain spells and restricting how many spells they can learn is a good idea, at least in my eyes. Spellblades are a cool concept but they are ruinous to pvp fairness if given too much power. |
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I also feel a bit spoiled from playing in a server with more spells, are there any plans on adding more magic spells? |
I'm not personally working on any and I can't really speak for the other devs, but if you know of some from a different server you'd like to see, I could always give a go at porting them. Poke me in the discord if you want. |
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some thoughts on the code itself. i have more thoughts on the large block that seems to be a pretty severe and serious decoupling of the spellbook mechanic from its intended purpose and feels a bit saltynerfy but i'm on the fence about how to articulate them.
I apologize if it seems like a salt PR, I've never actually fought and lost against a mage myself. The 2 point cap nerf was more to lower the ceiling than anything. For instance, a court magician can still get 9 spell points min-max'd. I mostly would be reading about how mages would be very strong if done to their best ability, so my conclusion was that the max play was too high. IF they wind up being underwhelming, I have no qualms about raising their base points-- which we can do per class now to better fine tune their balance. |
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finally, bladesingers can exist without being too redicious, not sure how I feel about acidsplash though, crowds are rough enough as it is without a royal guard debuffing my armor on top of using maces. this limited spell list doesn't affect liches right? who start with heavy armor trait of all things Honestly liches could be buffed to legendary spellcasters considering they're ancient unlike the court magos and its no longer too much of a concern of them getting seven billion spell points or some shit. |
The only thing that has this spell list implementation on it so far is the Arcyne Potential Virtue, so for the 1 spell point a lich would get for having that virtue, yes they would have the smaller list. It's just for the one point though. |
Preface
This is a continued, and deeper approach to magic/virtue/spellbook/class balance after my last merge in #1035
It's going to be a long one, so strap in.
If you wish to see the TLDR on changes, jump to the end tag.
Over the past few months I've been play-testing and observing the state of the mage/magic within Azure Peak. I've been listening to feedback and gathering ideas from various people, including new players who are just grazing the system for the first time.
For veteran players, I've heard an almost universal complaint that magic is too strong, or at least has the potential to be overpowered. Certain combination of spells and mechanics can and are abused to create situations where long standing players can show their robustness with ease. I think that's pretty valid, much like in DND, people who know that you can sorcadin, or life cleric some good berries will wind up breaking the game, it is just up to the DM's discretion to allow it.
On the reverse, new players tend to find this system too difficult, and mage to be overwhelmingly under-powered. With no dodge, armor proficiency, and a starting of 4-ish spell points, they often feel they lack an upfront of what they are actually supposed to do. Moving up a level, they may learn about the Tome of the Arcyne which allows them to progress their arcane magic level and gain more spell points. How do they get it? Well there's no mechanics that tell them how, so good luck to them. Mage classes in general require a deeper knowledge of the game and are considered an advanced class. But that need not be the case for those that wish to start their adventure roleplaying as a magic character.
So essentially what we have is a skill ceiling that is simultaneously considered too high and too low by the different players in the server. Both of these views are valid, but what I intend to do here is pinch these bounds to create a more simplified, all together, less RNG based experience for the class, as well as offer more RP opportunity for the Court Magician.
Contents
This PR contains several parts, all of which are intrinsically connected. I'll try to explain them in a way that flows from one topic from another. Those topics are:
Explaination
Spell points are the gateway to a mage's power, unlocking the ability to cast spells at either a cost of one or two spell points. Currently, every caster class starts with a number of spell points, 1 if they are a low level caster, 3 if they are a high level caster, 1 additional if they are old (in some cases), none if they are Pontifex (-6 currently), 1 from arcyne potential if they do not have armor proficiencies, and then a number of spell points corresponding to the class's level in Arcane Magic, 1 on novice up to 6 on legendary.
What this means is magic classes can get anywhere between 9 and 11 spell points if they are acting at cap proficiency. That is the spell point ceiling for anyone who is min-maxing.
For a new player who is just joining, they are more likely to maybe start with 4 spell points, one from base mage and 3 from their skill level in Arcane Magic. That is the typical skill floor.
Where this ceiling really arises is when you assume knowledge and maximum efficiency with the spellbook mechanic, which is the only way currently to raise your Arcane Magic level. The Spellbook is a device of pure RNG, with many clauses of variables that you will never know as a player unless you specifically go out of your way to code dive the functionality of the tome.
The tome currently misleads players on its functionality. Currently, there are small clauses that imply that you can learn Novice Arcane Magic on a small chance through two ways: You can attempt to make your own book to learn from by using a gem on a tome in waiting, or you can attempt to learn from another mage's book that they've bonked you on the head with.
The chances for each of these actions respectively are 1/100 gems (the gem is consumed each attempt) or ~15% per reading, which you have probably 5/6 nights to attempt. The first is generally impossible, the second is more or less a waste of time. Either way, we typically do not want people becoming magic without an investment of some sort, so this code is moot.
Arcyne potential is a recent addition that can allow any non-arcyne class to pick up novice level Arcane Magic and prestidigitation. With novice level Arcane magic available, they are able to create a spellbook, and have a chance to learn their way up to legendary gaining up to a maximum of 2 spell points. Arcyne classes without armor proficiencies get 1 spell point and a boost of their Arcane Magic skill by 1.
The allowing of martial classes to have the potential (albeit incredibly low) to gain 2 spell points was very scrutinized, because there are some spells that are just considered too strong to give to martial classes, and they're right. Many devs have commented that this would be an easier give if we could curate what spells are available to what classes, something I intend to implement with this PR.
The court magician is typically considered the most powerful mage in Azure Peak, under the employment of the monarch and with many resources at their disposal.. and yet, they feel a little left behind. Any mage can get to legendary without their help via the tome, leading to an often case of Magician Apprentices to even surpass their masters with just a few rests. This is another pain point I intend to change.
What This PR Changes
So now that we're on the same page about the functionalities and pain points of the magic system, here is what this PR changes:
Additionally, lowering the importance of the spell book will raise the skill floor for new players, as well as work to prevent some degeneracy in 'gem fighting' where anyone with a mage class fights over gem spawns just to be able to create their own magic book. No longer is it necessary for you to dedicate the first 30-60 minutes of your week on the dreaded 'spellbook tax', just to get your spell points.
Magic classes now start with Five or Seven spell points, depending on if they are a minor or major mage class (Zero for pontifex still.) With the de-coupling of spell points to Arcane Magic level, I am instead diverting those spell points to being received at spawn-- but do take note that this is a overall NERF to mage classes, as it lowers the overall spell ceiling by 2 points. This again helps newer players as they get more of the class's power immediately.
Normal tomes now cap out your Arcane Magic learning level to EXPERT. The Court Magician's tome is now the only tome that can teach anyone to master/legendary Arcane Magic, now named the Magister's Grimoire. They can still bonk other people and give them the ability to learn from it-- when they feel their pupil has earned it.
Why was this change made? No one should be able to surpass the skill of the master, without the master's guidance. This creates more opportunity for roleplay, letting others seek out the court magician for magical tutoring, much like the veteran. It also pushes the Court Magician into more of a 'head' roll, with more responsibility to not just piss off round start.
Finally, this is my first attempt at a 'curated' spell list, what was asked of by the devs, to not allow martial classes access to too powerful spells. This smaller list consists of:
And even better, this list is incredibly easy to edit now, so if you have a good argument as to why any of these choices should not be allowed, let me know in the comments. Like and subscribe.
Also cleans up the rest of the code from being too confusing. ARMOR trait? Small list. No armor trait? 1 point.
TLDR
Why It's Good For The Game
This allows for easier balance in the future for all magic classes. This closes the gap between new and veteran players, and makes the spellbook more comprehensible and less of a be-all-end-all RNG maze for mages.
I'm sorry this was so long 😭