Abandoned?

[nathanaelphilip]

Has this project been abandoned? Do you need help tackling issues or moving forward with new features? It’s a great project and it would be a shame to see it fall by the way side.

[jan-koch]

I'm following this too, but I wouldn't consider myself so good of a WP developer to contribute.

[jasonagnew]

Hey @nathanaelphilip and @jan-koch

I’ve really struggled to find the time for Herbert. A while back a few people starting helping out a bit but I think it needs someone who would enjoy spending a few hours a week on it. I don’t be believe you need to be a good developer to work on it - anyone making a change even if its not the best way to do something is better than it being abandoned.

I’d be happy to give people commits right if they would like to take a go at helping the project. Might be worth a try?

Thanks
Jason

[nathanaelphilip]

Hey @jasonagnew , completely understandable. I would be willing to help out and to manage the PR (and also lead development) if you would be able to help out with a road map for the project. I feel we could get some people to contribute, but you’re the only who knows where it’s going, so we’ll def. need some leadership/direction.

[jan-koch]

Hey @jasonagnew,
just like @nathanaelphilip said, totally understandable. And I appreciate your effort in building Herbert and sharing it with us!

There are a few Advanced WP groups on FB, which I think most of us know. Pretty sure we can find some devs in those who'd be willing to participate. I'm can email a few friends of mine and ask if they want to contribute themselves or know somebody who does. Pretty sure that we can grow a team (I'd be willing to help introduce people to each other and manage communications) if we spread the word about Herbert.

Do you already have an idea for the next milestones?

[sajadghawami]

Hey guys,

i am willing to help out where i can too, even though i might not be a pro.
how about starting to fix or close some of the open issues? I guess thats a pretty good place to start with.
What are your thought on this?

[jeremyzahner]

@nathanaelphilip @jan-koch @sajadghawami @jasonagnew

For me, it seems we have two major workloads here.

1. Open issues
2. The direction/vision of the project

Concerning 1: Since many of the present issues are questions (i tried to label as many of them as possible), any help on answering a few questions would be most welcome. Most of them should be solved easy enough for people that recently worked with Herbert. Responding to these issues is something anybody can help with!

Concerning 2: To be completely honest, I'm not quite sure on how we should proceed with that. I talked to a few people on last WordCamp Europes Contributor Day. The biggest issue for me, in general, is that we would need to decide on whether we should focus on providing a framework for building sophisticated enterprise-grade plugins or for developing open-source plugins for the repo. As sad as it may be, from what I know about the current state of WordPress in general, there is no way around that decision. Aforementioned has to do mostly with Wordpress wanting to be backwards compatible as far as possible. A decision like that is a knife with two blades. That, for example, means that we (and everybody else) building plugins with Herbert can have either cutting edge technology or backwards compatibility. For us (JOSHMARTIN) as an enterprise agency this decision is quite clear. Since @jasonagnew originally built Herbert with enterprise circumstances in mind, taking that direction seems quite obvious to me. Anyway, I find it to be a pity that a project like this seems to be incompatible with the current state of the WordPress ecosystem.

@jasonagnew As far as I'm concerned, we should make that decision pretty soon, since it's kind of blocking the project. Maybe we can set up a call pretty soon to talk about it.

[jan-koch]

Good points @jeremyzahner.

My initial thought on the direction was, that it should focus on enterprise plugins as well. Most free plugins aren't maintained (and maybe were never intended to be maintained). I wonder whether building a framework to build open source plugins adds benefits to most developers or just more workload:

Benefits:

• they get a clear structure for their files and code
• once they understand the structure, it's very straightforward and simplifies maintenance

Drawbacks:

• initially, using the framework adds more workload (more or less depending on the dev skills)
• devs might think Herbert is oversized for what their plugin is intended to do (think about all these small plugins doing just one thing)
• it might be tough to integrate Herbert with other frameworks:
  for example, I failed integrating it with a framework from a German real estate platform, as that framework was bad at handling sessions. Not Herbert's fault, but it prevented me from using Herbert)
• maybe a dev never plans to main a plugin, as it's a one-time fix or something similar.

Just my thoughts :)

[nathanaelphilip]

I’ll start looking at some issues this week. I’m excited to see this get some traction! :)

[jasonagnew]

Hi Everyone

My gut feeling is Herbert has got too complex for its own good. Looking back when I first built it - the pre branch it was just a couple of classes. In an effort to make it work with more than one Herbert based plugin we (Myself & Connor) ended up making the core a lot more complex and harder for people to contribute too.

One possible route I see working would be going back to a simpler version. Instead of pulling the core using Composer we could build a simple installer and updater. Which would fetch the core and change the namespace from Herbert to your plugin name. The updater would still allow people to fetch the newest version.

We should focus less on distributing plugins and more in the enterprise environment where the developers have control over the whole install. To improve the up take we could maybe adopt the WordPress VIP coding standard which I dislike but it could help the uptake with right people.

We would need to make the core not dependant on any other platforms so that means stripping back any of the Laravel dependencies. I actually did this recently - I took the Herbert router out and converted it to VIP standards and added middleswares - its super simple and a lot easy to work on.

https://github.com/jasonagnew/WP-Router

It’s nice to see people are interested :)

Thanks
Jason

[trong291990]

Hi @jasonagnew
I think this is great project. I am PHP dev, but am not very good in wordpress development.
I hope we can keep continue develop this project.

[sajadghawami]

@jasonagnew

i see your point there... but how about fixing the current major issues before moving away from the dependancies?
i can imagine that this process is easier, since you'd be able to track back the errors easier beforehand. the other way round would result in not knowing whether or not the bugs came from stripping away the dependancies, or it already being part of herbert.

what is your opinion on that?

[renaudham]

@jasonagnew

I see you idea.
But about stripping out Laravel dependencies, then what about Eloquent ORM? without a string ORM Herbert would loose quickly most of its power.

Then also in this case what would be the direction for Twig, that is then more or less a Symfony dependency.

The big advantage of both Eloquent and Twig is there they are well known adn easy to learn and apply.
And even today, as an example, Twig in Herbet is not yet using the full power of Twig by default, even if all files are embeded in the vendor folder.

Just an example, about this
this extension
$twig->addExtension(new Twig_Extension_StringLoader());
is not activated in public function constructTwig()
when its really usefull.

For me I think Herbert is the good base and need to be extended, not to be cut.

So if there is an issue with publishing in WP default free plguins repo,
if current plugins with Herbert are rejected, if it's the reason of the choice to make for the direction to take,
it would be good before taking any decision,
to analyze exactly why it is rejected, what part precisely of the current Herbert is rejected by WP.

Surely not the overall vendors/composer logic with dependencies as multiple plugins in WP free repo are currenlty published with same logic (example WP-erp).
And most probably not an issue with laravel dependencies, or not eloquent, except if WP change their politic recenlty, I already published to WP in 2015 a plugin embeding fully all Laravel itself.. no issue.

Any clear explanations about this?
I will make a try with my start of plugin, make my own publish to WP repo to see what happends, but having all of the experiences on this from all of you peoples would be good.

I keep the hope that this current version could be extended and maybe amended without cutting main features, in order to be pushed well to WP Repo.

I' ready to help here adn there with adding more feratures, or small evolutions
(example with $twig->addExtension(new Twig_Extension_StringLoader());)

thanks

[rameshelamathi]

@jasonagnew The framework will help taking the Wordpress to a whole next level (though WordPress likes to stick with the backward compatibility).

We have built a simple shopping cart using the Herbert Framework https://github.com/cartrabbit

From my personal experience building the app, we can eliminate the Models for WP tables (post, meta, etc) because we could very well use the Corcel for it.
That would trim down the framework's dependency.

I am ready to contribute and help manage the project. More and more people are looking for a stable framework to build their application on top of Wordpress. And Herbert can be the answer.

[renaudham]

Hi@rameshelamathidid you try to push this to the WP repo?
the whole issue with the future of getHearbet seems to be is ability to push
pluings in WP open source repo..And its seems complicated for the moment.
Any comments from anybody succeeding to get his pluign accepted by WP would be
good.
Thanks

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 10:36 AM, rameshelamathi [email protected]
wrote:
@jasonagnew The framework will help taking the Wordpress to a whole next level
(though WordPress likes to stick with the backward compatibility).

We have built a simple shopping cart using the Herbert Framework
https://github.com/cartrabbit

From my personal experience building the app, we can eliminate the Models for WP
tables (post, meta, etc) because we could very well use the Corcel for it.
That would trim down the framework's dependency.

I am ready to contribute and help manage the project. More and more people are
looking for a stable framework to build their application on top of Wordpress.
And Herbert can be the answer.

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[rameshelamathi]

Hey

No. I am not trying to push Herbert to WP repo. That is not the aim.

It should remain as a Rapid Application Development (RAD) framework for
Wordpress. That will make more sense to enterprise application
developers. To put it simply, what Laravel become to PHP is what Herbert
should become for WordPress.

The plugins that are developed using Herbert could be pushed into WP
repo. That the developer of the plugin can decide.

Hope I have explained it well.

Thanks

On 11/10/16 3:05 pm, renaudham wrote:

Hi@rameshelamathidid you try to push this to the WP repo?
the whole issue with the future of getHearbet seems to be is ability
to push
pluings in WP open source repo..And its seems complicated for the moment.
Any comments from anybody succeeding to get his pluign accepted by WP
would be
good.
Thanks

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 10:36 AM, rameshelamathi [email protected]
wrote:
@jasonagnew The framework will help taking the Wordpress to a whole
next level
(though WordPress likes to stick with the backward compatibility).

We have built a simple shopping cart using the Herbert Framework
https://github.com/cartrabbit

From my personal experience building the app, we can eliminate the
Models for WP
tables (post, meta, etc) because we could very well use the Corcel for it.
That would trim down the framework's dependency.

I am ready to contribute and help manage the project. More and more
people are
looking for a stable framework to build their application on top of
Wordpress.
And Herbert can be the answer.

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[BWibrew]

Hi @jasonagnew,

I agree with some of the above comments that this should become more of a rapid development framework for enterprise orientated plugins and that more features should be added before worrying about bloat. I'll be rebuilding a large plugin in the new year so I began searching around for a plugin framework and found https://github.com/DevinVinson/WordPress-Plugin-Boilerplate and Herbert.

Herbert seems like a brilliant alternative to the boilerplate framework in the same way that the https://github.com/roots/sage starter theme is an alternative to Automatic's UnderscoreS.

One framework gives you a base to build something that can easily be uploaded to the Wordpress plugin directory and the other framework allows developers working on bespoke, internal or similar projects to get the job done using modern techniques.

I think it's a shame that this project seems very new and extremely useful and it now seems in danger of slipping into obscurity. The roots/sage starter theme directly goes against some Wordpress guidlines in an effort to provide a more modern workflow and it's still one of the most popular frameworks available.

I'll be glad to offer some help in the future when I can find the time.

Cheers.

[terence1990]

Hey Guys,

I have been looking through Herbert and it is amazing, I started on a RAD framework called WP Kit;

https://github.com/creativelittledots/wp-kit (Theme)
https://github.com/creativelittledots/wp-kit-standalone (Standalone)
https://github.com/creativelittledots/wp-kit-core (Core + Examples)
https://github.com/creativelittledots/wp-kit-installer (CLI Installer)

It currently can be used a RAD for your theme and standalone as a sub-directory in your Wordpress root (perfect for developing API's semi-agnostic from WP)

There is not much documentation but this is being worked on and should be completed by mid November.

I will be looking to make WP Kit capable as a plugin and add the plugin install feature to WP Kit Installer and will be looking at Herbert and taking ideas as to what features could make WP Kit richer.

[ken-bem]

Hi @terence1990, i saw you work and it looks interesting, I myself have been working with trying to make herbert compatible with other plugins. Who knows, maybe in the future we can combine all 3 projects into network. Good luck on your progress! Cant wait to see results!

[terence1990]

Hey!

I've made loads of updates today to WP Kit Core, taking inspiration from
Herbert. Just need to run some testing and then I will make a new release
that includes plugin support. The issue of course surrounds namespacing.

Once it's there feel free to fork the core and send pull requests for
improvements, I would love to arrive at one combined and powerful RAD.

Thanks,

On Saturday, 22 October 2016, ken-bem [email protected] wrote:

Hi @terence1990 https://github.com/terence1990, i saw you work and it
looks interesting, I myself have been working with trying to make herbert
compatible with other plugins. Who knows, maybe in the future we can
combine all 3 projects into network. Good luck on your progress! Cant wait
to see results!

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[ken-bem]

@terence1990 i was going over your project and i see you have implemented some of the things i was woking on for Herber (ACF and Gravity Forms). I will continue developing as an addon to the current herber and you may take ideas to keep adding to WP kit and I could take from it.

Lets hope one day we can make that powerful RAD!

[rameshelamathi]

Happy new year everyone.
Will anyone be willing to join me in forking and developing Herbert ?
As Jason suggested, it might need some stripping down and also needs quite a bit of improvements.
My initial thoughts are to bring in the improvements made in Corcel (Eloquent ORM for WP) to Herbert and then take it from there.

Feedback is welcome :-)

[ken-bem]

Hi @rameshelamathi, i am interested in helping you further herbert. But i dont think it should be stripped down, but to be refactored and expanded. As a Java developer i think if we take on this task we should model it in the way of the Spring Framework

[rameshelamathi]

Great @ken-bem
Refactoring and expansion is required. More importantly, unit tests need to be implemented.
Also let's hear suggestions from others as well.

[ken-bem]

@rameshelamathi let me know when will we start

[jeremyzahner]

@rameshelamathi @ken-bem We would happily accept any Pull Requests, especially if they concern testing, refactoring, cleaning etc. Probably the biggest issue for the projects rapid development right now are the missing tests.

[tedmasterweb]

This project is probably the closest to a 1000 hour head start that I've seen for plugins and it has the most structured approach to development as well.

There are some things that could be shored up, but it seems to be working well-enough. I disagree that it is bloated, but I understand why @jasonagnew feels that way.

For me, it would be helpful to have more examples of how to use the config file and the Helper function. I'm finding that either there are bugs (doubtful) or it's just not clear given the current documentation (which is nicely laid out).

It would also be VERY useful to compare how WP recommends plugins be coded (this Settings API tutorial seems "official", but the code produced is not terribly organized) and how the same thing would/could be done with Herbert.

I'm also not terribly fond of twig. I don't see how I can call any of the WordPress translation functions inside a twig template (maybe someone can lend a hand?).

But in general I think this is a promising project.