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Aircraft gives too large inputs when letting go of the stick #9399

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Jaronics opened this issue Nov 4, 2024 · 50 comments
Open

Aircraft gives too large inputs when letting go of the stick #9399

Jaronics opened this issue Nov 4, 2024 · 50 comments
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A380X Related to the A380X aircraft Bug Something isn't working Flight Model Anything thats related to the planes performance regarding aerodynamics etc. Reproduced Bug has been verified and reproduced by QA

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@Jaronics
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Jaronics commented Nov 4, 2024

Aircraft Version

Stable

Build info

{
    "built": "2024-11-02T19:03:13+00:00",
    "ref": "refs/tags/v0.12.1",
    "sha": "2776100c286d3723826c62df36dc48207657d937",
    "actor": "Benjozork",
    "event_name": "manual",
    "pretty_release_name": "stable/v0.12.1",
    "version": "a380x-v0.12.1-rel.2776100"
}

Describe the bug

When moving the stick and letting go, the plane rolls back a bit.

Expected behavior

The plane stabilizes after letting go of the stick and doesn't roll back.

Steps to reproduce

Takeoff

Roll the plane to one side and let go of the stick

Observe the roll indicator

References (optional)

https://youtu.be/PtDehEfu57Q Video of me testing the roll.

Additional info (optional)

No response

Discord Username (optional)

No response
@Jaronics Jaronics added A380X Related to the A380X aircraft Bug Something isn't working labels Nov 4, 2024
@donstim
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donstim commented Nov 5, 2024

Another example here: https://youtu.be/DnY5YY5cCyE?si=OnFMJMdd2IbpqC6v&t=3762

@Jaronics
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Jaronics commented Nov 5, 2024

Yes, that's it.

@AlonsoJCY
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Yep, I think that is one of the major problem that make the landing difficult to keep stable

@alepouna alepouna added Flight Model Anything thats related to the planes performance regarding aerodynamics etc. Reproduced Bug has been verified and reproduced by QA labels Nov 9, 2024
@alepouna
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alepouna commented Nov 9, 2024

QA Reproduced

@colinlenzner
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Have the same problem. You can see it very nicely on the F/CTL page. After „finishing“ my input the aircraft makes an input on its own into the other direction. I habe the feeling that the problem gets worse when on approach and fully configurated. Makes the plane pretty much unflyabke for me, sadly, as especially the landing is pretty much a fight of me against the aircraft.
I‘m using the Thrustmaster Airbus TCA sidestick, if thats of any relevance.

@exocetfalling
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I have this too with a VKB Gladiator NXT.

@admccarty
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Same here. I have tried on both the T.flight Hotas X and the Thrustmaster Airbus TCA and both have the same issue. Literally cannot land unless it's left on autopilot, completely unflyable on final approach when manually flying as the plane fights back in the opposite direction to where you're telling it to go.

@FWB800
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FWB800 commented Nov 13, 2024

I always find problems like this difficult to analyse, I'm not having the pitch and roll issues that are being reported, I don't know why I don't. I'm using TCA Airbus Captains X pack on a pc I bought in May 2024. If I do a slight roll and leave go, it corrects to level flight and doesn't go beyond that and because of that I find it very stable on finals. If I do the max bank and leave go, it goes back to a stable 30 deg turn on it's own and stays there, pitch control is good and doesn't appear to be over sensitive, using same config for the A32NX on the A380X for the sidestick

@talkedeh96

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@colinlenzner
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Just wanted to add that the problem seemingly worsens with the flaps extended.

@Jaronics

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@exocetfalling
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Any news on this? I have tried to solve it myself but no luck so far.

I've tried to adjust things in [flight_tuning] but increasing aileron effectiveness just makes it worse. The issue probably lies in the MATLAB FBW laws code, so unless we can fix that we're stuck.

@colinlenzner
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Any news on this? I have tried to solve it myself but no luck so far.

I've tried to adjust things in [flight_tuning] but increasing aileron effectiveness just makes it worse. The issue probably lies in the MATLAB FBW laws code, so unless we can fix that we're stuck.

But alepouna was able to reproduce the issue. So shouldn't it be able to already be trackable? I mean, some users don't have it apparantly. So it can't be a general problem for everyone, right?

@Jaronics
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Jaronics commented Dec 1, 2024

I have got a new stick now and the problem still persists. Although it seems to be less. I have only done one flight so far, so I will need to test further.

@leftseat380
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I can confirm this as well. When able, I will check my flight controls as well when rolling. Does the rudder move when leveling the wings?

@admccarty
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Anyone with this issue tested the A380 in MSFS 2024? Would be interesting to see if the issue persists in the new sim.

@colinlenzner

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@exocetfalling
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exocetfalling commented Dec 20, 2024 via email

@Jaronics
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There is work going on. With #9645 the issue seems to be fixed.

Any updates???

@donstim donstim mentioned this issue Dec 31, 2024
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@Jaronics
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With the new update the issue seems to be better, but it is still there sometimes.

@donstim
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donstim commented Dec 31, 2024

Thanks for the report.

@colinlenzner
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Yes I‘d also say it has gotten better. But it still is present. I‘d say the slower you let go of the stick/return to neutral the less pronounced the issue is? But also during landing I feel its more prominent than on takeoff.

@colinlenzner
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So I've just done a few complete flights with the aircraft. I can definitely say it has gotten better, as stated above. BUT especially on approach its as bad as before to my taste. To counter this you basically have to give some kind of input all the time it feels like, so that you do not return the stick to the center quickly in any way. This results in constant slow inputs. I've just done a landing in gusting winds up to 40kts and with this one the issue was really really noticeable again. On the other flights with calm winds it isn't that big of an issue as you don't have to correct that much.
What gives me hope though is that one of the earlier dev-patches did make it in fact better. IIRC it fixed some other flight dynamic stuff. What also gives me hope is that @alepouna mentioned the issue is reproducable. Although I'd love to hear what exactly the cause is (as apparently it is known).
I've also played around with my joystick settings again, creating huge neutral deadzones and turning the reactivity down and whatever but nothing changes anything. Besides that my joystick is also not noisy or anything and I've tested the aircraft with two joysticks and a yoke in the meantime.
Last thing: I've also noticed a kind of similar issue on the ground with the nosewheel steering? I use my twist axis on the joystick for the tiller input and I noticed when letting go of it quickly the aircraft also steers a little bit into the other direction. But I have no clue if that is supposed to be like that, that it is some kind of tirewall flexing or something like that? Never had it on any other airplane though.

@Jaronics
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Jaronics commented Jan 8, 2025

I noticed the thing with the nose wheel as well. I am using the Z axis of my stick to steer on the ground.

@colinlenzner
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I noticed the thing with the nose wheel as well. I am using the Z axis of my stick to steer on the ground.

Same, using the twist axis. But I've played around so much with sensitivity settings, checked the axes in MSFS and also straight in Windows and there is 1000000% definitely nothing that corresponds to the aircrafts' behaviour.

@donstim
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donstim commented Jan 20, 2025

Any issue with nosewheel steering on the ground would not be the same issue as roll control behavior in flight. I am unable to reproduce the roll issue in flight anymore with the latest dev version of the airplane, neither in cruise as was shown in the initial reference video, nor on landing with a 25 knot crosswind gusting to 25.

@leftseat380
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Just tested again. Definitely not fixed. Still rolls the opposite way when the stick is neutral. Constantly fighting to keep the bank angle I command. It seems to be a roll inertia issue or the flight control law coded in the fbw software.

@donstim
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donstim commented Jan 20, 2025 •
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I cannot reproduce it. I would check your controller. https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ajsy7Ey4_8uFgZxI_IWDkP5v6HSedg?e=v3sDun
I assume that you are using a linear roll sensitivity?

@Jaronics
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My sensitivity isn't set to linear

@donstim
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donstim commented Jan 20, 2025

For the roll axis it should be.

@Jaronics
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Jaronics commented Jan 20, 2025 •
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Unsure, I feel like It's still there, even when axis is linear. It's noticeable on final approach, although it's less than originally.

but METAR also said gusty winds, so maybe I am imagining stuff

@admccarty
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Haven't flown this plane in a while but came back to test it again after seeing these comments.

Still seeing the same issue here with the latest dev update installed, doesn't matter if roll is set as linear or not I get the same results. I think it is slightly less severe than the last time I flew the A380, but definitely still there. Wind was totally calm when I tested.

@donstim
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donstim commented Jan 21, 2025

Interesting that you all are still experiencing this issue. Can you post a video showing your sidestick movement and PFD? See my video above. Here are 2 more, one at 5000 ft at 250 KCAS flaps up, and one on a nominal approach path and speed with full landing flaps. If anything, for larger stick movements, I am seeing a bit of continued roll for a bit after the stick is returned to neutral, though I don't know how fast the airplane can stop the roll IRL. I am not seeing any rollback in the other direction at all.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ajsy7Ey4_8uFgZxTfSWE9Mfk3mzUyA?e=3vB5JZ

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ajsy7Ey4_8uFgZxUqMFYVC4kR5S5SQ?e=5jeZaA

@leftseat380
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leftseat380 commented Jan 21, 2025 via email

@donstim
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donstim commented Jan 21, 2025

Again, I invite you to provide a video of such, showing both the sidestick (or controller input) and PFD (or other indication of bank angle/roll rate) as well as pertinent parameters like weight, speed, CG, airplane configuration and flight path. Anything that would help me to reproduce this issue.. I've provided 3 videos showing that I cannot reproduce it. If it can't be reliably reproduced, it can't be fixed.

@exocetfalling
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exocetfalling commented Jan 21, 2025 via email

@exocetfalling
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exocetfalling commented Jan 21, 2025 via email

@leftseat380
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leftseat380 commented Jan 21, 2025 via email

@leftseat380
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leftseat380 commented Jan 21, 2025 via email

@donstim
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donstim commented Jan 21, 2025

https://youtu.be/3oq52QQPYX8

See this video, taken today with version 0a7533e.
…

Thanks for this. That's definitely strange. Do you also see this behavior on our A32NX?

What type of controller do you have? If you test the controller in the Windows controller properties page, does it overshoot when you release to neutral? How about if you do that with the controller sensitivity window in MSFS open?

@donstim
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donstim commented Jan 21, 2025

even on the ground I get opposite yaw.I use my aileron axis for my nw
steering
and When I go to neutral it turns back slightly.
…

That just really sounds like a controller issue if it happens in both the yaw and roll axes. I don't think steering on the ground has anything to do with roll response in flight.

@exocetfalling
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exocetfalling commented Jan 21, 2025 via email •
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@exocetfalling
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exocetfalling commented Jan 21, 2025 via email

@Jaronics
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Yes, it doesn't happen on the a32nx.

@leftseat380
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leftseat380 commented Jan 21, 2025 via email

@leftseat380
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leftseat380 commented Jan 21, 2025 via email

@Jaronics
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Thats pretty hard reaction tho. For me it is way less with the new versions of the plane

@exocetfalling
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exocetfalling commented Jan 21, 2025 via email •
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@leftseat380
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leftseat380 commented Jan 21, 2025 via email

@donstim
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donstim commented Jan 22, 2025

https://youtu.be/5V38hi49T0E

A32NX today, no issue. You can see the roll is crisp as can be.
…

What I see is the exact same issue. Look at your first two inputs. Right after you neutralize it comes right back to the original back angle, just like in your A380X video. I don't think this is the behavior that the others are experiencing. This is well beyond the ordinary. I suspect an issue with your controller.

This is what I get for the A32NX roll response: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ajsy7Ey4_8uFgZxav_CKeV1X1vATAg?e=SJTh8Z

Here is what I get for the A380X: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ajsy7Ey4_8uFgZxbK2-ohSE8B5Q6sw?e=yuhKAK

I can now see that for the slightest of inputs, it does appear to roll back a bit. Is this the behavior you are seeing, for example, @Jaronics? For most inputs I don't see any of that at all, but for the slightest ones it does show up for me, though it is not noticeable to me when flying the airplane. If that's it, I'll have to see what, if anything can be done about it.

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A380X Related to the A380X aircraft Bug Something isn't working Flight Model Anything thats related to the planes performance regarding aerodynamics etc. Reproduced Bug has been verified and reproduced by QA
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@admccarty @talkedeh96 @donstim @exocetfalling @alepouna @Jaronics @FWB800 @AlonsoJCY @colinlenzner @leftseat380