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Yes, got the ping, thanks! WRT to chart at end, as I now understand it, @Myndex please correct:
Unfortunately, I am not clear on: I would very much appreciate having some of these graphs, especially the three new ones, as spreadsheets. (But only so much as can be shared publicly.) I trust the results, I just want the option to noodle with formatting. |
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Hi @Myndex, A couple of follow ups: On the first set of graphs, what is the X axis? It almost looks like CSS codes, but not quite, I'm familiar with needing 3 characters for a hex colour. Actually, never mind that, the new ones are more interesting! I was trying to understand the other set as well, which are clearer in the what they are showing, but I'm still not sure what the Y axis actually means in terms of colour? The X-axis on the newer ones appears to be black to light grey in partial hex codes, but is the 00 up to 250 an RGB value? If so, which colour, or doesn't it matter? Ah, I found the "More Descriptive Description", but I don't understand what this means: "RGB value of both colors as an integer (0-255)", how can it be of both colours? E.g. if the text colour is #555, and the background is 123/#aaa... Both text and background color? Another two colours?! I'm confused. Questions aside, I think the purple/white charts are what was I was requesting in order to see the overlap and differences, thank you.
Yep, I did mention it was probably a wavy line, I just thought that there would be a (wavy) line for regular vision, a higher version of that line for low-vision, and different dips for different types of colour deficiency.
Interesting, an old friend used a command line with mid to dark blue text on a black background, which I couldn't read, but he (red-green colour blind) thought was great.
Yep, and I'd like to keep the focus on readability, the colour-alone SC is separate.
Understood, but in the context of comparison to WCAG2, can we focus on the colour-contrast aspect and assume a given text size, font and weight? That would certainly help in setting up an experiment to compare them both to user-ratings of various colour combos. |
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Hi @alastc Old Charts
On the old charts, the X axis lists the text and background color at that point in the chart. Because the goal is looking at luminance contrast, some of these early studies were done irrespective of hue, so the shorthand for what the particular color was is just a two digit hex value. So A3 would be On those charts, the Y axis is contrast value. New Charts
And the new ones are more useful for show and tell I think — the old beige ones were just for my use or for using in a paper. That November 2019 study was where I realized that there just wasn't any really solid contrast guidelines or math/methods for the narrow scope of readability contrast on self-illuminated monitors, and thus I focused on making one.
The X axis on the purple charts is whatever the "common" color is between the two methods (on the chart that's the straight line triangle). Both WCAG2 and APCA reduce the RGB color to a luminance as a first processing stage. So for practical purposes the equivalent achromatic color can be represented by a single 8 bit value. FF is white NOTE: APCA converts to luminance in a slightly different way than WCAG2, and allows a simple math trick that helps make sure red on black fails, whereas it passed in WCAG2. That said, I do have unreleased technology that is more active and more direct in processing hue/chroma, though in light of the pushback of "it's too complicated" and what not from Yati and friends, I'm reluctant to present any of that, I figured it best to focus on the most basic version only, as far as public facing material. Plain Language... or not
If I have gained anything from this experience it's that I learned the hard way that I have communication deficits I never knew about. It makes me think that back in the day, no one in any of my corporate work ever actually read my reports: they just skimmed the conclusion and then weighed them, as in literally with a scale, and then "well this is a pound of paper, so it must be good" or something. 😳😎 (that paragraph by the way is my idea of humor, I re-read it twice because it makes me laugh). Back to 'splaining: for the purple charts, they are all based on dark text on a light background. The background color and text color share a straight vertical line on the Y axis, and are t the same position on the X axis. That was what I was trying to convey with this: The lower dots are the text color's lightness, and the upper dot is the background color's lightness. So the double arrows point to a color pair. Infographics FTW
No, thank you and Bruce 😊, it was Bruce's idea, he asked me to create charts that showed the overlap "like venn diagram". I have been increasingly concerned that I have not described and explained what is going on here with APCA, and there is substantial misinformation out on the net, not just regarding APCA or WCAG 3, but misinformation about contrast and vision in general, and much of it seems to have expanded in the last year or two, but that may be simply because I'm looking for it. I think I'm going to end up with a book about contrast well before I finish my book on modern color theory. In both cases I'm going to focus on infographics I think... LOL... If there are other infographics that you want, or perhaps I should ask, "what are some key things not being understood right now" in the community, so I can create some infographics for that purpose?? Luminance is king...
Those charts present hue and saturation, without regard to luminance. For readability, it is luminance, not hue and saturation, that is the primary "color" factor — except for hues that cause interfereance, red for protan, and things like glare related (blue is a big part of that). All of the scientific literature discusses that CVD have otherwise typical/standard vision and contrast sensitivity (baring co-morbid impairments). Protan sees red dark or not at all so they lose the luminance with that band of light. The elderly have reduced blue due to yellowing of the ocular media and/or cataracts. Before I had my cataract surgeries, the word was dark, brownish, and blurry. Here's an example, in 2016 when I was getting my surgeries, I made this for an example to reference. I had a sign with the word Action on it with one foot (30cm) letters on it, and stood 10 feet away to make these examples. One foot letters at ten feet is close to 6 degrees visual angle, which is an x-height of ~350px or a font size of about 700px.Put another way, it would be a capital E on an eye-chart at a 20/1200 line (if there was one, normally not, the standard chart stops at 20/200 or 6/60). The reason I bring this up, and the reason I made it at the time, was my interest in how dramatic the color shift was due to the cataract lens. A total darkening, plus the acuity loss, and then obvious a loss of blue — fortunately blue is not needed for reading, but not relevant as the OD acuity pre-surgery made the eye useless otherwise.
If you are still in touch with him, I have questions... do you know if he was protanopia? or blue cone monochromat? In either case, I'd love to have him as a participant in the study.
If it is just the blue primary of the typical monitor, with no green, then yes — the sRGB blue does cross into the M and L cones a little, but the contribution to luminance is minimal. Luminance is what is needed for reading. Here's an example: Standard vision left, Deutan right: Read? A Billy Tea
Okay good, the basic APCA (the only version that I've made public facing) is specifically about readability and semantic understandability (object recognition, i.e. understanding that a pictogram is a house or a car, etc). Coding by color — such as a map or an air traffic control display — IS part of the larger SAPC/SARCAM model, but APCA is simplified to just non-text and readability contrast, as perceived due to spatial frequency and luminance.
Okay, BUT: spatial frequency (text weight and text size) is inextricably intertwined with the lightness/darkness (luminance) contrast. WCAG 2 has essentially one single breakpoint for font size: large or small. And "non text" is just thrown in with "large". Part of the comparison to WCAG 2 is NOT just the color math, but the full APCA guidelines which include color(luminance), but emphasizes font size and weight, because that is the real driver of perceived contrast (for stimuli less than 4px X 4px), and non-text-size and purposes, and use cases, which places the strictest contrast on body text, next then fluent text, then headlines, and large bold elements, then "trash" elements like placeholder text, disabled elements.... I think you've seen this infographic before, but for review, click to see full size, and notice the difference in perceived contrast between the much bigger headline letters and the body text blocks, even though all of them are the exact same colour: Experiments?So, one challenge is that WCAG 2 and APCA are two different paradigms. • WCAG 2 math is a simple contrast ratio that does not follow human perception of stimuli on self illuminated monitors. • APCA uses compound power curves that are fit to empirical data collected through contrast matching experiments. ConformanceWe've now developed more than three separate conformance models. But the three that are of interest right now are:
I hope I answered all your questions, please let me know if there are more. Thank you! |
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Responding to a post Originally posted by @alastc in w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf#131 (comment)
The earlier part of this thread is at the LVTF: w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf#131
Responding to @alastc and also adding in @bruce-usab and @sdw32 (and not sure if these pings will work??)
While I can't post there I can apparently edit, so I changed the name of the thread to "comparison" in view of our recent discussions.
That is understandable — of course, I have impaired vision, with a different variety of impairments in each eye, and the test subjects thus far have all had impairments, including refractive, ocular age related, and even one individual with rod only achromatopsia and the related photophobia/low vison.
In my case, IOL implants in each eye that have functional issues, one with a UV filter and one without, detached retinas with a full vitrectomy OD, torn retinas OS, vitreal detachment and severe floaters occlusing the foveal central vision OS, and Humphrey scores of -22MD, and a little hypertension macular degeneration just to add a nifty cherry on top. 😳
I mentioned this early on, and I wonder that is the source of the rumor that I don't have impairments and impairments have not been involved in the studies??? This is one of the recent "baffling things."
I won't speak for Sam's model — for one of the comparative studies I did in 2019, I used randomly generated colors from the entire available set of sRGB colors. The random distribution of background colors was weighted toward brighter to give the WCAG 2 math a better chance. This was done in view of the fact that designers normally do not choose bad colors.
The results in the 2019 study was WCAG did 49% false passes and 23% false fails relative to a perceptually correct baseline. This was using a much earlier model, SAPC-6, of which I tweeted a chart to you earlier today.
In the below from 2019, the ideal is a flat horizontal line. WCAG2 is the thick red line.
Click for Full:
For more modern charts, see this set I just did last week: these were per Bruce's request for charts that demonstrated how much overlap there is between WCAG 2 and APCA. In those charts, purple is 'both pass" white is "both reject the colors" and blue/cyan is WCAG 2 passes but APCA rejects, and the magenta/pink is APCA passes but WCAG 2 rejects.
Okay, so first, no not really — for standard vision on the chart you just presented it would not be a straight line.
The chart you present is not equal luminance from left to right. So StandardVision would have a line that would be lower through blue and red and higher through Green and yellow. (to simplify).
But before I go any father let me just say that there are two separate issues when we're talking about colors and contrast, readability and discrimination (i.e. color coding). These tasks are neurologically separate.
READABILITY
Readability is a function of luminance contrast (lightness/darkness) and hue/chroma plays little to no part in that, other than:
Color Vision Impairments (CVD) and Readability
TL;DR
Okay, that's READABILITY, now color coded information:
DISCRIMINATION
Here's an example.
People associate deutan and protan as "red green color insensitive" and make the assumption they can not distinguish red from green. The reality is more nuanced. Looking at this chart:
One thing to notice is that the deutan and especially protan DO distinguish red and green due to the massively different luminance. But they have a real problem with green and YELLOW, as yellow is a color that normally stimulates both the M and L cones.
For readability:
Acuity is best helped with increased size, and increasing size does increase contrast because contrast is mostly affected by spatial frequency for fonts smaller than about 32px (ish - consider a 4px square as an important nexus point).
Because green is the major part of luminance, green on white only works when the green is very dark. The other primary hues should eb the darkest color, and protan sees red darker and tritan sees blue darker, so in those cases white text results in HIGHER contrast for them. Black text degrades contrast for them.
For readability and color vision deficiency, mainly the protan is a concern, which relates to red, orange, or purple becoming darker, so for the protan those colors should typically be paired with white.
Let's mention the achromat
ALL THAT SAID
APCA is using the research of Legge and Bailey/Lovie-Kitchin for determining reasonable and useful thresholds for readability.
The model itself traces to Fairchild's RLab, Hunt's complete model, CIECAM02, CIELAB, CIELUV, Barten, Stevens, C.Poynton, M.Stone, L. Ahrens, and FAA and NASA research, and of course the studies and experiments conducted here for validation.
More curvy in the third dimension, not seen in these charts.
It occurs to me that an article by Roger Attrill demonstrates this using color chart software he developed, and he did a compare of WCAG 2 vs APCA, you might like the article especially as I didn't write it LOL.
https://medium.com/@think_ui/why-color-contrast-is-not-as-black-and-white-as-it-seems-94197a72b005
He demonstrates what you are saying.
So I demonstrated that with nice charts here: #30 (comment)
And here's one for a preview:
AND TO BE CLEAR: The current APCA that is public facing handles sRGB red (if fails red on black where WCAG 2 passes it) but there is other unreleased color-related technology we can discuss in a not-public setting, but will need to be for the future rec2020 colorspace.
The PRIMARY focus for APCA is fixing readability, and that is luminance contrast and spatial frequency together, irrespective of hue.
Hue is a factor where hues cause interference, or a loss of luminance for a given impairment (i.e. protan).
Thank you, and please let me know of further questions...
Andy
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